You may have read about the R5 Volume Purchase Program that the US Department of Energy came out with several years ago. The idea was to encourage the manufacture of R5 windows which would drive down the cost.
It was a decent idea, but it hasn’t produced much in the way of results. In fact most windows that meet these ratings cost the same today as they did back then. We’re not aware of any R5 window products on the market that have come down in price since this program was established.
Which windows qualify for this program?
The Department of Energy decided that any windows with a U-Facotr of 0.22 or lower would qualify. Of course most if not all manufacturers already offer windows that meet this criteria. About the only reason the costs of these windows are sometimes high is that the manufacturers price the most efficient options to provide the highest margins.
There is no manufacturing difficulty in producing a product like this and about everyone already does it. Could any company sell these products for less? Sure, but the Department of Energy is not likely going to be able to help.
Does this mean the R5 Windows Volume Purchase Program was a failure?
Not necessarily, but it certainly hasn’t been the success the DOE hoped for. Most if not all window manufacturers offer windows that meet this criteria, but homeowners in the most of the country don’t pick them with much consistency. For example, many (if not all) windows will need to go to triple pane glass to get that rating. Triple pane glass costs about $100 additional per window. If you have 10 windows in your house that would add about $1,000 to a typical project.
Will you get much benefit from windows like this vs typical Energy Star rated windows?
Probably not. If you live in a harsh climate the impact of the more efficient windows will be greater. If you’re in Maine or Minnesota you may want to consider this option, but if you’re in the more temperate parts of the country the savings will be much smaller.
That isn’t to say triple pane windows are always a bad deal. If you’re going to be in the home for a while and are looking for the most efficient option they can represent a great value. The bang for the buck gets smaller as the windows get more efficient so just keep in mind that the increase in cost will be greater than the increase in efficiency.
If you’re looking for a window company right now, the best advice we have is to check out our list of the best window companies all over the country. You can find it right here.
Shopping for replacement windows can be a bit daunting and even comparing replacement window ratings can be much more difficult than you might expect. Why is this? Because companies don’t want you to make sense of it. The companies that offer the “best windows ever produced by mankind” know full well that their windows aren’t really any better than other windows offered by hundreds of other local companies.
How then can you sort through all of the nonsense to get to the real info? First you need to understand the ratings. U-Factor and R-Value are common ratings used to measure efficiency. You may be familiar with R-Values as they’re used in insulation.
Simply put the U-Factor is the inverse of the R-Value. For example a windows is an R-4 then the U-Factor is 1/4 or 0.25. Of course if it were that easy everyone would understand it and there would be no need for this post.
Here’s a little history. Back in the day (say before 2008) windows were commonly sold based on R-Values. These are nice round numbers that are easy for consumers to understand. A very common sales pitch included prices for windows with an R-4, R-7 and R-10. The higher the R-Value the better so the R-10 cost the most and the R-4 cost the least. That pitch was very effective due to its simplicity. It was easy to teach the salesperson and it was easy for the customer to digest. The problem was that it wasn’t very accurate.
In 2008 the federal government came out with expanded tax credits for replacement windows that were based on specific U-Factors and SHGC ratings. Intently the R4-7-10 pitch went out the window as folks were now concerned with the 0.30 U-Factor required to qualify for tax savings.
Why did the feds base the tax credits on U-Factors?
We know a lot of things the government does don’t make much sense, but this one did. U-Factors as determined by the National Fenestration Ratings Council (NFRC) are a measure of the entire window. They take into account the frame, the glass, any additional options and they provide a clear measure of the effectiveness of the product. This is why the U-Factor remains the best measure of efficiency of a window long after the federal tax credits have gone away.
Why do some companies still use R-Values?
Because they don’t want to offer you an easy comparison. R-Values as given out by window salespeople are often measures of just the center of the glass of the window. This is the most efficient part of any window as it doesn’t take into account any spacers or frames or other parts. Of course you’re buying an entire window not just the glass. Looking at just the glass measurements doesn’t do you any good.
We routinely see companies advertising R-10 windows as being special, which is just silly. To accurately describe this an R-10 window would have a U-Factor of 1/10 or 0.10. Do these windows have U-Factors of 0.10? They do not. Why don’t the numbers add up? Because they company was trying to be tricky with the ratings.
So know you know that just about any window company offering R-Values is not being clear about the ratings, it’s important to remember that the Department of Energy put out an R5 volume purchase program a few years back. The ratings in this case were accurate. This was setup to drive down the costs of windows that exceeded the previous standards. It hasn’t been much of a success just yet, and we’ll have another post on the subject.
So how do you sort through all of this to find a great deal?
The easy way is to look at the NFRC ratings for the products you’re considering. Don’t take some R-Value from the salesperson. Just ask them for the real NFRC ratings and don’t take any excuses as to why the company can’t or won’t provide them.
Once you have that, you’ll be able to compare the options directly and you’ll be on your way to cutting through all of the clutter to find yourself a great deal.
This one made us chuckle. It’s a combination of the “you’re getting a special deal” and the “you need to order right now to save”. That combination is a bit of a work of art in the sales business and can be a pretty deadly combination. We wouldn’t be surprised if this one was more successful than we know. Here’s how it works:
You’re getting a free quote to replace the windows in your home. When the salesperson is presenting the prices and going through all of the discounts and promotions you tell him you want to get a couple of quotes to compare.
Of course he knows that if you get other quotes you’ll see that his “special” deal is not very good at all. What does he do? He’ll tell you that another customer of his just placed a very large order. Maybe it was 200 windows for an apartment building. It just so happens that they will be placing that order tomorrow and if you act now he can put your windows on that same order which will qualify you for a volume discount. You’ll get pricing as if you ordered 200+ windows, but you’re really only ordering 10 windows. That sounds like a pretty fantastic deal right? Except it’s completely not true.
Years ago I worked in one of the largest replacement window plants on the east coast. We produced around 4,000 replacement windows per day. That’s 20,000 windows per week, 80,000 windows per month, you get the idea. Based on that scale, even if there really was another order from this local company (which there certainly isn’t), the plant doesn’t offer a volume discount. Even if the plant did offer a volume discount it would be something like $10 per window, or $100 total for your 10 window project.
Once you get an idea of the scale involved in manufacturing this trick seems sillier and sillier, but most folks have no idea.
The thought of getting your windows at a special discount just because you had the good fortune to get a quote on the same day as they were going to enter a large order is just too much for some folks to resist. Of course the discount offered is likely thousands of dollars which is necessary to get you to make a rash decision.
You can be sure that the salespeople sign up customers using this tactic all the time. They then meet up with each other a joke about the sales they made that day. You don’t want to be one of the people they’re joking about.
If you’re looking for a window company right now, the best advice we have is to check out our list of the best window companies all over the country. You can find it right here.
If you’ve been shopping for replacement windows you may have seen this ad running in your town. “Trade in your old windows and SAVE!”
I may not have told you much about my background, but I did sell cars in college and I think that’s an experience anyone who wants to work in business should have. You learn more about people in 6 months on a car lot than you will doing about anything else. This replacement window promo always reminds me of the old days selling cars in Lafayette, IN.
I guess it works because the idea of trading something in sounds a little nicer that throwing it out. It really does sound nicer. You wouldn’t throw out your old car, you trade it in for a nicer model. It’s pretty easy to see what happens to your old car after you traded it in. Just swing by the dealers lot a week later and you’ll see it looking all shine with balloons ties to it and a SALE sign in the windshield.
What happens to your old windows after you’ve traded them in? They go to the dump. It is completely impossible to reuse them for anything other than an art project and it’s pretty darn tough to recycle them (although we have an upcoming post on recycling building products). You can be sure they’ll never be used as windows again.
Why then do companies pay thousands of dollars to run ads referring to a window trade-in program? Generally it’s because the window business is pretty competitive and they’re looking for a way to attract your attention. Does that make them bad companies, no. This one is a little different than some of the other window sales tactics we’ve outlined.
It sure does make their ads silly and it might make them deceptive if they’re telling you that your old windows really are going somewhere other than the trash heap.
Some lucky highschooler might be thrilled to drive your old car, but there is nobody who wants your junky old windows.
If you’re looking for a window company right now, the best advice we have is to check out our list of the best window companies all over the country. You can find it right here.
We see ads like this running all over the country. Sometimes it’s a buy 2 get 1, sometimes it’s buy 3 get 1 or even buy 5 get 1. Maybe some discount levels seem more plausible to folks which is why they would vary the amount. While that would be an interesting psychology experiment, it’s a silly way to shop for replacement windows.
If you remember anything from this site, remember that nothing in the window business changes every day or every week or every month. If the company charges prices that are high enough to allow them to run a buy 2 get 1 free sale then they were charging people way too much before that sale started. Do you want to work with a company that charges folks way more than they need to? I hope not.
Ads like this are designed to instill a sense of urgency. To reinforce the idea that you’d better buy now or you’ll miss the boat on this great deal. We know you’ll see ads like this for shoes or pizzas, but replacement windows are a different animal. Notice the great pizza ad at the top of the page, makes me hungry.
Consider that you’ll buy windows for your home once. They’ll likely last 30 years or more and the typical contract price will be $7,000 or so. That makes windows different than a pizza. The proprietor of the local pizza shop may offer a real sale that will eat into his profits on the order because he knows you’ll be impressed with his work and you’ll come back for more.
If the window company does a great job your windows will be done and you won’t be coming back for any more. Sure you may tell your friends or you may order something else in the future, but if you do you’ll just tell them about the great sale and they’ll never buy at full price.
Here’s how this really works. Many window companies will operate on hugely inflated starting prices. They call these list prices. For a typical vinyl window they’ll tell you the list price is around $2,500 – $3,000. Then when they come to give you your quote they’ll say, “sure if you buy 2 at list price you get one free.”
We’ll do the math for you. That’s 2 windows at $2,500 each so $5,000 and they’ll give you another free. They’ll be installing 3 windows for $5,000 or over $1,600 per window. That’s a horrible deal.
All of the sudden your fantastic savings has turned into a pretty bad deal, but they’re not done. You’ll soon hear about their appointment saver discounts or time management discounts which are designed to push you into signing up on the spot. Now if you don’t buy today you’ll lose the appointment saver discount and the buy 2 get 1 free sale ends tomorrow. You wouldn’t want to let those savings get away would you?
C’mon, this is one of the silliest tricks in the book, but companies use it every day. We know, you’re probably saying. “oh I would never fall for that”. We know, everyone says that, but these companies do millions of dollars in business every year. Someone is falling for it every single day. Don’t let it be you!
We have to say this is one of the silliest names for a sales tactic we’ve ever heard. About a month ago our company participated in a home and garden show in Richmond, VA. After the shows we typically have around 100 appointments with potential customers looking for quotes to replace their windows or doors.
Interestingly, all of the folks who come to a show to get info on windows end up getting quotes from a few companies who were at the show so we end up competing with the same companies over and over again for about two weeks.
As is typical we found about 90% of the folks we met with ended up working with us, but with these customers we heard a new one. we repeatedly had folks asking us if we had a time management discount. We’d never heard that one before, but it turns out it’s another way to phrase the old “appointment saver” discount.
Remember that companies will always be looking for a reasonable sounding way to convince you to sign up on the spot without comparing their options. Companies that operate this way know full well that they’re not offering a great deal relative to their competitors. If they said, “please buy from me without exploring your options because I need to pay my bills and if you shop around you’ll figure out this is a bad deal and you won’t give me your money. If you do that I won’t make any money, so please just buy from me right now without thinking it over.”
Of course, that’s not a convincing sales pitch, so they justify in any way they can. In this case they’re telling folks that if they need to meet with you to give you a quote, then meet with you again later to sign up the paperwork they’ll lose a lot of money by making two visits. Of course this explains the very practical reason they need to offer a time management discount. Ha!
The business person in me would quickly respond with all sorts of info about bottle necks and constraints, but the simplest answer is this is just a bunch of junk. They have plenty of time in the day to meet with you.
If you hear about time management discounts, do your self a favor and cancel the appointment. If you area gluten for punishment go ahead with it and post your experiences here.
If you’re looking for a window company right now, the best advice we have is to check out our list of the best window companies all over the country. You can find it right here.
Every day we are blown away by the growth of this site. We wanted to take just a minute to say thanks to our fantastic readers.
This site was started as part of a news years resolution to help make this business easier for folks to navigate. We first went online (with a little help from a friend) on Jan 4, 2014. Since then we’ve been working hard to post all sorts of behind the scenes window info and the feedback from readers has just been great.
If you’re looking for a window company right now, the best advice we have is to check out our list of the best window companies all over the country. You can find it right here.
We certainly were surprised to see we had over 10,000 readers in July and we’ve continued to break daily traffic records into August. At this growth rate we could potentially have over 250,000 readers in 2015. That’s just crazy!
We’re certainly not done producing great content. In addition to hundreds of new window reviews that will be coming online soon we also have setup a top secret Window Dog test lab. Our inventory of window samples is growing by the day and we have some fancy new video equipment to bring you all of the latest info.
Soon we’ll be posting detailed videos on common window features along with real world tests to help you decide what is worth the money and what is a bunch of hot air. For example, we’ll be testing glass options and spacer systems very soon. In addition, we’ll be adding detailed video reviews and side by side product comparisons to illustrate the differences between various products.
So, if you have any window related questions that aren’t yet answered be sure to post a comment and we’ll do out best to address it. We read each and every comment and try to respond to as many as possible.
If you’re interested in continuing to learn more about windows be sure to bookmark the site and things are only going to keep growing around here!
Thanks for coming by and we really do appreciate you!
It’s easy for folks to hear salesperson after salesperson say their windows have a “lifetime” warranty. You can get used to hearing it and you might start to think that they’re all the same.
On the other hand, companies that offer more limited warranties will try to explain why a shorter warranty is better. They’ll say that a lifetime warranty is actually only good for a few years (which is not true and they probably know it). Why would they do this? Because nobody would buy their products if they couldn’t explain why the warranty was so short. Renewal by Andersen is a great example of this one.
Here you can see the very short warranty offered by Renewal by Andersen. Why would they offer a warranty this short?
This is a 2 year warranty on installation, 10 years on the oh so fancy Fibrex frames. That is a REALLY short warranty.
Update: Renewal by Andersen has since updated their warranty and it’s now 20 years on the frames. Perhaps they took our advice! It’s still shorter than what you’d get from a lot of other companies, but 20 years is a pretty long time.
We also hear from customers that they don’t want to depend on a warranty so they want to pick a quality product that they think will hold up. Of course picking a quality product is a great strategy, but in discounting the warranty they’re ignoring a crucial data point indicating the quality and anticipated lifespan of the product.
Here’s the deal. Brochures and flyers are written by salespeople. Warranties are written by lawyers and engineers. There’s a big difference.
The warranty on any window or door product is a direct indication of how long the manufacturer actually expects the product to hold up. If they offer a long and comprehensive warranty they’re telling you they are confident that the windows will last. If they offer a shorter or more limited warranty they are directly saying that they think the product may fail after that point.
Think about it this way: a shorter warranty will absolutely result in fewer sales. The manufacturer knows that some percentage of their potential customers will thoroughly read the warranty and if it isn’t as good as their competitor the customer will buy elsewhere. Why then would one company offer a warranty that is more limited than their competitor? Remember, they know doing this will result in lower sales. They do it because they have to. They do it because they know that some percentage of their products will fail after those limitations run out and they don’t want to be on the hook for the repairs.
So what are the differences between different window warranties?
You’ve probably seen that most decent replacement windows offer some type of “lifetime” warranty. That’s absolutely true, but as with most things, the difference is in the details. When it comes to warranties the differences can be huge.
Here are 5 common differences:
Labor coverage – You’ll see a lot of “lifetime” warranties, but when you actually read them the labor is only covered for a limited period.
There are also 2 types of labor to consider. There is the labor of the installer who did the initial work, and then there’s the labor of the service technician who comes out to replace a defective part. Are they both covered? Is one limited to 1 year or even completely excluded? They may be. If the service labor is limited who is going to repair a broken window or replace a damaged balance? How much will it cost?
Remember the Renewal by Andersen example above. 2 years of warranty on installation. Many companies cover these items for as long as you own the home. That’s a BIG difference.
Glass breakage coverage – Do you know how much it can cost to replace an insulated glass unit? Remember, these aren’t the old single pane windows you might have had growing up. A new sealed glass unit can easily run $100 – $200 for a typical replacement window and the labor can double the total cost. We recently got a quote to repair a broken window from a local competitor to make sure we knew what the competition was charging. It was over $400 for one piece of glass in a typical double pane window. That’s real money.
Here is a clip from the Simonton Prism window warranty. You can see the insulated glass warranty is prorated overtime, but the glass breakage warranty is solid for 25 years.
This is the warranty for the Simonton Prism line. Their other lines have different warranties so be sure you know what you’re getting.
Some companies offer a glass breakage warranty to everyone they do business with. Some offer it at an additional cost and others don’t offer it at all. When you’re considering a window project it’s important to know what you’re getting.
When you hear that baseball go through the window you’ll be glad you know what you picked!
Hardware & moving parts – As you get a few quotes and look at window samples you’ll quickly see that there are hundreds of choices and they all use slightly different bits and pieces. That’s not a problem, except when you need a new lock 10 years down the road. How will you get one that matches the rest of the windows in your home?
Some companies cover the hardware, balances and all moving parts for as long as you own the home and some limit that coverage to just a few years. This is an important distinction.
Screen coverage – We frequently see warranties that exclude screens. Screens aren’t expensive, but the frames tend to be proprietary so you may have trouble getting a replacement down the road.
Screens are really easy to fix or replace so any company interested in taking care of their customers after the sale will have no problem covering screens. A company that excludes screens is telling you that they don’t want to hear from you once your check clears.
Coastal coverage – This one can be important. We recently read a window warranty from Ideal Windows that defined coastal as being within 1 mile of any tidal body of water. Right now I’m easily a 2 hour drive from the beach, but I’m less than a mile from a tidal river. I grew up in Chicago, less than a mile from Lake Michigan, which has tides. Both of these locations would be considered coastal under that definition and as a result the warranty would be extremely limited.
This is a clip from the Ideal Windows warranty. Is your home “coastal” under this definition? It might be.
I can guarantee you my family in Chicago doesn’t consider their home to be near the coast. Someone in that position might skip right over a section on coastal coverage and they would be out of luck if they have a problem down the road. Maybe I like reading these because I have several lawyers in my family, but the devil is in the details.
As you can see from these basic examples (we could go on all day) there are HUGE differences in the warranties of replacement windows. We know it is REALLY dull to read the fine print of a window warranty. It only takes a few minutes and we can guarantee you it will be time well spent.
If you remember any one thing remember that a more limited warranty results in lower sales. Why would a company offer a warranty that results in lower sales? Because they have to. Because they know their products won’t stand the test of time.
This is a HUGE data point and you’ll be remiss to overlook it.
Have a question about a specific window warranty? Post it here and we’ll dig into the details. We really do love this stuff.
You signed up for a free in-home quote for a remodeling project and as things are wrapping up the salesperson hits you with a “special” discount if you would just sign on the dotted line right now.
You remember very clearly that they told you the prices would be guaranteed for a year, but all of the sudden the high price is good for a year and the lower price is going to expire when she walks out the door. What’s the deal with that?
If you remember noting else, remember that this type of pricing scheme is a sure sign that you’re getting a bad deal.
Think about it this way: this salesperson does this for a living and she knows much more about the pricing than you do. If she was sure that what she was offering was such a great deal then she would be confident that you could think it over and you would certainly call her back to get this great deal. Why would she come up with a strategy to get you to sign up without considering your options? Because she knows it’s not a good deal.
Of course she can’t tell you it’s not a good deal because she gets paid commission and that would be a bad strategy. So what does she do? She comes up with a way to justify this short term discount.
The appointment saver discount is nothing more than a justification for manipulative pricing. She will tell you that if you buy now while she’s already there it will save her the trip back to sign paperwork later. She’ll tell you all of her customers call her back because she’s got the best deal in town and she ends up visiting everyone twice.
She might tell you that her accountant told her that if she could only visit each customer one time it would allow her to meet with twice as many people which would double the size of her business. It would be worth offering a substantial discount to double the size of her business right? Wrong.
This is a complete bunch of junk, but believe us when we tell you there are companies out there telling this story to unsuspecting homeowners all across the country tonight.
Remember when you’re hearing all of this that they explain these stories for a living. She does this every day so she’s probably pretty good at it. She’ll have an answer for everything and she’ll sound reasonable. That’s her job.
If you tell her you’ll fax the paperwork after you think it over she’ll say she needs the originals.
If you tell her you’ll mail the originals in a week or two when you’re ready she’ll say the rebate ends today.
If you tell her you’ll drop the forms off at her office she’ll tell you they need your order today to meet their quota. Next week will be too late. Of course she may not have an office, but that’s a story for another day.
As you’re hearing all of this remember that nothing in the window business changes on a daily basis. The ONLY reason they create pricing schemes like this is to separate you from your money.
Do you really think that if you call her up next month and tell her you want to go ahead with the project she will tell you tough luck? Of course she won’t. She’ll probably be pretty surprised as nobody ever calls her back, but you won’t either after you get a few more quotes.
We know getting quotes for remodeling projects can be a hassle and you may just want to be done with the process. We have seen folks pay $5,000 – $10,000 more for a project than they needed to because the salesperson told them they needed to sign up right now to get a great deal.
Everyone says, “oh, I’d never fall for that”, but these companies do millions of dollars per year in business. Someone does fall for it each and every day.
If you hear about an appointment saver discount, or a manufactures rebate, or a quota, or a managers special, just thank them for their time and call the next company on your list.
If you’re looking for a window company right now, the best advice we have is to check out our list of the best window companies all over the country. You can find it right here.
Note: The Revere Berkshire windows have been discontinued. Revere has removed some features from the old Berkshire window and renamed it the Amherst Plus window. They have replaced the Berkshire window with the completely new and redesigned Berkshire Elite window. You can read our review on that new model here.
The Revere Berkshire windows were the most popular replacement window ever produced by Revere Building Products. They sold hundreds of thousands of Berkshire replacement windows over the years. The window combined many features found in more expensive products with the simple clean lines that Revere widows are known for.
Why was the Revere Berkshire window discontinued?
Time stops for no man (or replacement window). The Revere Berkshire windows just got a little long in the tooth. There have been some innovations in the replacement window business and Revere needed to keep up. Newer windows were using true sloped sills and non-metallic reinforcement. The newer replacement windows were achieving slightly better efficiency ratings including better air infiltration ratings. If Revere wanted to continue to offer a top tier replacement window option they needed to change.
What about the Revere Berkshire window warranty?
One of the benefits of working with a large company like Revere is that you can be pretty confident that they’re going to be around for the long haul. The fact that they retooled the Berkshire window to create the new Amherst Plus window is a great sign for past customers.
This means all of the equipment needed to product parts for the older Berkshire windows is still in the plant. Revere has set themselves up to be able to honor their warranty obligations for many years in the future with no problem at all. This is a great sign for past customers.
